Author Topic: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities  (Read 3223 times)

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Offline Russ 736

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Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« on: October 17, 2012, 10:12:51 PM »
I am interested in finding out the logical steps that one needs to take to get the grading companies to start certifying new varities. As an example, I believe that the 2003 gold pandas also come in the frosted and mirrored bamboo patterns that the S10Y Pandas have.I believe this because I own a pair of G100Y 2003 Pandas that are obviously of the two different types. I contacted Max at NGC to discuss this.He asked for pictures of the two coins and had the graders look at them. Their response was that they didn't have any plans at this time to include the frosted/mirrored bamboo for the gold pandas.Not that they don't exist, just that they had no plans. Do I just wait until they decide it is time or is there something else that could or should be done to speed things up. There must be a method or proceedure for this as S10Y pandas have added 3 new coins in the recent past so somebody knows how to do this. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject.

Russ

tamo42

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2012, 12:09:04 AM »
I don't know the answer to your question, but I wonder if it matters whether the grading companies recognize varieties. Paper labels inside holders are static, and the information we have about coin varieties evolves over time. This is especially true for MCC.

All I need from the grader is whether or not the coin is authentic and what quality level the coin is. Of course,'even that limited amount of information creates argument :).

Offline Russ 736

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2012, 12:23:44 AM »
For many collectors it probably doesn't matter. Many people on this forum don't ever have any coins graded and leave them in OMP so they might not care. I have become addicted to NGC registry sets and as a result I would like to own at least one graded coin of each set and variety that I collect. They do add new coins from time to time and I would like to be ahead of the game rather than playing catch up. For that reason I am trying to find out what the rules are, if there are any.

Russ

Offline radderlee

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2012, 01:10:35 AM »
Yes. For 2003 gold pandas, 1/20,1/10,1/4,1/2, also have two varities, frosted bambaoo from the shenzhen mint, and mirrored bamboo from shenyang mint. In the market, the frosted bambaoo gold pandas was hard find.

Offline Russ 736

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2012, 10:39:00 AM »
Radderlee,
         Thank you for your confirmation. Just as a point of information for forum members, I had quite a discussion with NGC grading staff about Chinese mints and the production of large date VS small date coins. I made the assumption that everyone knew that in different years the various official mints produced either the large or small date Panda. In addition, that could change for gold VS silver pandas. Being a devotee of Peter and his Panda book, I refered to the book and it's great close up pictures to convince the graders that the coin we were discussing was really a certain date size and that the OMP even backed me up as it showed that the coin was minted at the mint that made the date size in question that year. I was shocked when I was told that NGC doesn't consider where the coin was minted to help establish variety. In fact, they seemed surprised that minting site could actually indicate variety. I told them that many times Chinese dealers  ( and others ) refer to the mint site to describe the coin for sale and just assume everyone knows that signifies whether the coin is a large or small date.They seemed truly surprised. I know that NGC monitors this forum so I would hope they might chime in on both the main topic of my thread as well as the fact that mint site does matter.

Russ

Offline exchange

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2012, 11:02:27 AM »
I was shocked when I was told that NGC doesn't consider where the coin was minted to help establish variety. In fact, they seemed surprised that minting site could actually indicate variety.

It should not be a surprise. Grading companies are in the business to make money. Considering where a coin was minted does not make money. Researching what an OMP should look like from a particular mint does not make money. What makes money and what brings business back is the grading and what number is assigned to a coin.


exchange

Sham Wow

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2012, 12:31:01 PM »
Hi Russ,

Yes that is interesting about what you were told by NGC. It does surprise me. 

There was a person who wanted to get a specific variety recognized by NGC, he spoke to Max Spiegel and discussed the reasons as to why this particular coin should be recognized.

Max was EXTREMELY helpful and conveyed that the two coins should be sent directly to NGC and to his attention further commenting that officials from the Chinese mint(s) were scheduled to be at NGC the next week and would assist in identifying the possible variety.

The two coins were sent as directed to Max along with a detailed report of the variety differences.

About four weeks later the coins arrived, variations assigned.

It is just a suggestion but maybe try emailing Max again, offer to send in one of the 2003 frosted and one of the 2003 mirror coins (if you have both) along with a report describing what you see as the variations.

Hopefully you can succeed as I also agree there is a very noticeable variety for that particular coin.

Thank you 

Offline Russ 736

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2012, 01:20:59 PM »
Hi Sham,
        First of all I want to thank you for your insight on this matter and also to say that Max is a great guy and has been super helpful on many matters. I don't want anyone reading my post to think that I am bad mouthing Max. I am not.He followed up for me with the graders in a timely fashion and got their response back to me. I think that I will contact Max again and offer to send him the coins ay my expense and risk of rejection and see what happens. As for Radderlee's observation that the frosted bamboo is the rare one, I hope he is right as my frosted is a 70 and my mirrored is a 69. As for Exchange blaming the profit motive, I agree that NGC is in the business of making money but I would think that it would follow that the more varieties there are, the more coins there would be to grade ( and charge extra to designate ). Thanks to all for your imput.

Russ

Offline Russ 736

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 10:29:13 AM »
I just want to update the forum on my quest to get NGC to recognize the 2003 G100Y varieties. I followed the advice Sham Wow gave and contacted Max at NGC again. He got back to me rapidly and asked me to send in the coins for review. He indicated that he checked with the head of modern coins and they have also found 1/10 oz 2003 gold Pandas have the two types. Max asked me to let him know if any other sizes of 2003 gold Pandas have the two types as they are interested in expanding the program. I told him that it had been reported that all of the fractional Pandas had the two types but I hadn't heard anything about the 1 oz. If anyone can confirm any other 2003 gold Pandas that have the frosted/mirrored Bamboo types, please let me know or email Max at NGC. Thanks again to Sham and Radderlee for your help.

Russ

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 11:13:27 AM »
If anyone can confirm any other 2003 gold Pandas that have the frosted/mirrored Bamboo types, please let me know or email Max at NGC. Thanks again to Sham and Radderlee for your help.

Russ
The Coin Compendium has 22 entries with pictures on the 2003 500 Yuan 1 OZ gold panda.  It is under the heading of CCT186.  Perhaps you can look over these pictures and decided which is the frosted/mirrored variety.  You can also determine the rarity based on those population.  If you don't have access to CC or do not wish to access CC (it is getting a lot of bad press lately), I can provide you with the list of NGC/PCGS cerfication numbers.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 11:16:28 AM by SANDAC »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 11:20:10 AM »
BTW, the CC also have a number of entries on other 2003 gold panda.  I'm rather occupied right now, but how I'd love to go on a variety hunt with you!

Offline Russ 736

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 12:07:09 PM »
Hello SANDAC,
            Thanks for the imput. I do use CC and will follow up by checking the site.

Regards
Russ

Offline PCGS-ASIA

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Re: Getting NGC/PCGS to recognize new varities
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2012, 07:15:55 PM »

You are all welcome to PM me here if you have something you'd like to inquire about.
Any reasonable "deviation" will be considered for recognition.

I just found one today, the prints are sitting on my desk.  Is it recognized yet?  No.

Will we?  Maybe.

As far as the 2003 gold goes, we've been sitting on that one.  Probably should have been recognized some months ago now.  We'll see....