Topic: Liu Hong's article on the brass Plum Flower Great Wall medal translated

[fwang2450]

Those interested in the origin of the Plum Flower Great Wall medal can read the very insightful article here: http://modern-chinese-numismatic-info.blogspot.com/2015/01/on-purpose-and-timing-of-initial.html.

This is an eBay transaction that ended yesterday: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Great-Wall-Of-China-Bronze-Medal-Medallion-Chinese-/121536098811?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140813152802%26meid%3D73af786e65db4e50a856e98cd7612fac%26pid%3D100260%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26mehot%3Des%26sd%3D121536098811%26clkid%3D3319262564927574593&_qi=RTM1963929&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=AN%252BGvOkc4uJMW21pVCNg5k1%252BmCc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[andrewlee10]

wow a good price for the second rareness Great wall medal....

The price is cheaper than the yellow brass which is the 3rd lowest mintage (forecast). It is close to the color/purple brass wrong wording (HEROS) medal.

I wish I won it.

[fwang2450]

The Chinese Exhibition Great Wall medal does not appear to be the second rarest among the four. It has appeared on the market now and then. The 1980 brass Great Wall is more elusive and commands a much higher price. In the November, 2014 ePama auction, one sold for $6000, dwarfing the Chinese Exhibition medal in market value. Some questions have been raised on the Chinese Exhibition medal as some details on the later Plum Flower Great Wall brass and stained copper medals are missing from this medal. But then it can be explained away by assuming that the plaster modal of the later medals was reworked to add more details.

[andrewlee10]

Yes, skimming reading the mandarin article so make a mistake.

Can you assist in rank them accordingly ?

I just start the Great wall by last month and hunt down the brass (yellow) last week

[Alien]

I would agree with Frank’s comment that the “Chinese Exhibition” Great Wall medal is not likely to be the second rarest among the first four brass medals based the frequency they have been shown on the market. All of the “Chinese Exhibition” Great Wall medals were distributed in the U.S., it is rare in the Chinese market.  Further, this medal was not listed in any of the official Chinese medal catalogs, it therefore also gives the appearance of its rarity.

If I have to make a comparison on the rarity among these brass Great wall medals, I would put the following as the rarest ones:
•   The “People’s Bank of China”
•   The “NO HEROS” error medal with date 1980, no incused Badaling word
•   The “NO HEROS” error medal without date and without incused Badaling word

I would put the following in the second tier in terms of rarity:
•   The “Chinese Exhibition”
•   The “NO HEROS” error medal without date, but WITH incused Badaling word

[fwang2450]

Wow, now we have the expert speaking. I believe Alien is the author of the article Liu Hong. Correct me if I am wrong.

One question for Alien, though: The Chinese Exhibition medal has different details from the 1980 and later Plum Flower Great Wall medals. Or less details to be precise. For this reason, some collectors took the medal to the veterans of Shanghai Mint, like Chen Jian and Yan Shaolin. They did not seem to remember the minting of this medal. So there is some doubts on the authenticity of this medal among some Chinese collectors. Of course the differences in detail can be explained away by assuming that the plaster modal was refined as the earlier version was probably done in a hurry. And the minting was probably done among a small team. But do you have any other evidence to place its authenticity beyond any dispute?

Thanks!

[Alien]

Frank,

Yes, I am the author of the article. However, I have to say that your English translation did a much better job than what I intended to bring the topic for further discussions in the numismatic community.

As for the authenticity of the “Chinese Exhibition” medal, I would rather not speculate or dispute, it is better for the folks who are interested in this type of medals to investigate and then make the call.  What I can tell you are what I have been trying to find out the details of this medal.

I was invited by Huang Ruiyong and attended the International Symposium on the 30th Anniversary of Panda Coins in Shanghai in May 2012, where I met both Mr. Chen Jian and Mr. Yan Shaolin, among others well known in the Chinese numismatic circle. Other than ordinary greetings and card exchanges, we did not discuss anything about these medals then.  I did ask Mr. Chen Jian about the where about of the silver medal of “the Memorial Hall of Chairman Mao”, which was a trial piece preceded the gold medals of “Beijing Scenery”.  After coming back to the U.S., I emailed Mr. Yan Shaolin in August 2012 with pictures of both medals of the PBOC and the “Chinese Exhibition” and asked for more information about them. Mr. Yan was cautious, he responded without offering any opinions. Instead, Mr. Yan referred me to Mr. Gao Hongfei (大铜缺) who was specialized in collections of various Great Wall medals. Mr. Gao confirmed to me that the “Chinese Exhibition” was indeed for the 1980 trade show in the U.S..  I further did some research on the background information about this trade show.  Before this, Mr. Huang Ruiyong already put his hand on the “Chinese Exhibition” medal I had when he stopped by my house en route to the Chicago coin show in 2011, and agreed it was made by the Shanghai Mint for the Chinese trade show in 1980. I further got in touch with Mr. Gu yida, in an attempt to have additional opinions about medal, Mr. Gu responded saying that he did not have any information at the time, but promised that he would bring it up to his friends in his circle for further study.  I did not get in touch with Mr. Yin Guoqing about the medals, as he already listed both the PBOC medal and the “Chinese Exhibition” medal as the internal issued items by the Shanghai Mint in his blogs.  About a year ago, I obtained my second “Chinese Exhibition” medal on eBay, and requested additional information from the seller, who told me that the medal belonged to his aged father-in-law who got it years ago from a Chinese trade show.

Based on observations of various plum flower Great Wall medals in my hands, there are multiple versions varying in small details. For example, I was probably the first person to report the brass error version without 1980 date AND without incused Badaling word on the medal. I am continuing to do my homework in discovering and understanding various Great Wall medals and certainly would like to share with those who have the same interest.

[andrewlee10]

The articles is great and helpful in buying the Great wall medal.

Is the grading company recognize the varieties and differences.

Any great-wall medal been graded for the cooper and brass?

I will post the photo of my newly purchase brass great wall medal later.   

[fwang2450]

The articles is great and helpful in buying the Great wall medal.

Is the grading company recognize the varieties and differences.

Any great-wall medal been graded for the cooper and brass?

I will post the photo of my newly purchase brass great wall medal later.   

NGC has some Plum Flower Great Wall medals graded. But be cautious. The rumor is that early in the days when the Plum Flower Great Wall stained copper medal was first submitted for grading, a few fakes passed through. A recent zhaoonline 69 Plum Flower Great Wall in stained copper was judged to be questionable, and the auction was canceled.

[fwang2450]

Frank,

Yes, I am the author of the article. However, I have to say that your English translation did a much better job than what I intended to bring the topic for further discussions in the numismatic community.

As for the authenticity of the “Chinese Exhibition” medal, I would rather not speculate or dispute, it is better for the folks who are interested in this type of medals to investigate and then make the call.  What I can tell you are what I have been trying to find out the details of this medal.

I was invited by Huang Ruiyong and attended the International Symposium on the 30th Anniversary of Panda Coins in Shanghai in May 2012, where I met both Mr. Chen Jian and Mr. Yan Shaolin, among others well known in the Chinese numismatic circle. Other than ordinary greetings and card exchanges, we did not discuss anything about these medals then.  I did ask Mr. Chen Jian about the where about of the silver medal of “the Memorial Hall of Chairman Mao”, which was a trial piece preceded the gold medals of “Beijing Scenery”.  After coming back to the U.S., I emailed Mr. Yan Shaolin in August 2012 with pictures of both medals of the PBOC and the “Chinese Exhibition” and asked for more information about them. Mr. Yan was cautious, he responded without offering any opinions. Instead, Mr. Yan referred me to Mr. Gao Hongfei (大铜缺) who was specialized in collections of various Great Wall medals. Mr. Gao confirmed to me that the “Chinese Exhibition” was indeed for the 1980 trade show in the U.S..  I further did some research on the background information about this trade show.  Before this, Mr. Huang Ruiyong already put his hand on the “Chinese Exhibition” medal I had when he stopped by my house en route to the Chicago coin show in 2011, and agreed it was made by the Shanghai Mint for the Chinese trade show in 1980. I further got in touch with Mr. Gu yida, in an attempt to have additional opinions about medal, Mr. Gu responded saying that he did not have any information at the time, but promised that he would bring it up to his friends in his circle for further study.  I did not get in touch with Mr. Yin Guoqing about the medals, as he already listed both the PBOC medal and the “Chinese Exhibition” medal as the internal issued items by the Shanghai Mint in his blogs.  About a year ago, I obtained my second “Chinese Exhibition” medal on eBay, and requested additional information from the seller, who told me that the medal belonged to his aged father-in-law who got it years ago from a Chinese trade show.

Based on observations of various plum flower Great Wall medals in my hands, there are multiple versions varying in small details. For example, I was probably the first person to report the brass error version without 1980 date AND without incused Badaling word on the medal. I am continuing to do my homework in discovering and understanding various Great Wall medals and certainly would like to share with those who have the same interest.

It is a pleasant surprise to meet you on the forum, Alien, and thanks for your kind words about my translation. As the Chinese saying goes, your name "strikes my ears like the roar of thunder." Your expertise in Great Wall medals (I still miss your pictures of the Great Wall medals on the Hexun blog, which unfortunately is unavailable now) will definitely benefit members of this forum and clear some mysteries, as more collectors on this side of the ocean get interested in this magnificent piece of artwork by Luo Xingsha.

Your narrative of the Chinese Exhibition Great Wall medal is convincing. You certainly did a careful investigation by calling on the big names of large copper medal collection in China. Moreover, if the Chinese Exhibition medal can be traced back to a visitor to the Exhibition, its authenticity should not be doubted.

This does bring up the interesting topic of the varieties of the Plum Flower Great Wall design, from the People's Bank of China all the way to the 1988 Dragon - Plum Flower Great Wall and a few others. Apart from numismatic research itself, identifying these varieties will help distinguish genuine medals from fakes, as the Plum Flower Great Wall stained copper medal is known to be counterfeited.

[andrewlee10]

NGC has some Plum Flower Great Wall medals graded. But be cautious. The rumor is that early in the days when the Plum Flower Great Wall stained copper medal was first submitted for grading, a few fakes passed through. A recent zhaoonline 69 Plum Flower Great Wall in stained copper was judged to be questionable, and the auction was canceled.

It is really disappointed of wrong label and grade wrongly those china fake coin/medal by those grading company.

I have no knowledge of Western old coins/medal. Does those western grading companies also did the same mistakes as china coins/medals?