Author Topic: supply and demand of gold panda coins  (Read 13744 times)

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Offline storm

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2020, 03:55:28 AM »
A great article on the pandas and mastersets!  Perhaps you can write more about such articles.  Unfortunately, the Chinese collectors' community in Germany has shrunk to a very small number and the supply of good coins is becoming increasingly rare.  I have also heard from other collectors and a Chinese man with whom I do business that some Proof Pandas master sets have been supplied.  There are also 2 types of master sets.  A type where 69 and 70 coins were added and a set where 68 and worse were added.  Can you confirm that?  The coins they have named are rare.  But you never know how it comes.  I think the run will start again soon.  Then other series will also be affected, which will rise again.  Perhaps my beloved inventions and discoveries will also come out of my sleep.  It is the most beautiful series in modern china coins for me.  rare, beautiful and there are almost none on the market.  Maybe you will get a little more attention from other collectors :) I wish you can write more of these articles.  This encourages me to continue collecting in this wonderful collecting area.  Greetings from Germany!  N40

Thanks! I didn't know the master sets you mentioned. There could be one or two all 69 grade master sets. Different companies have different ways to check their coins. I love D&I sets, the gold ones are beautiful, the pt. ones are tough to get. Kilo silvers are very hard to get 69 grade and kilo gold will cost you a fortune.

Thanks again!

Offline storm

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2020, 04:03:39 AM »
N66 N31

Hey storm,

great post, please do it again for the silver panda market and give us your insights!
How is the demand for 1 oz silver panda master sets in China?
Are other sizes like 5 or 12 oz silver pandas also out of interest?

Btw, sometimes it is good enough to know the right questions, you may not need the exact answers.

So, please continue posting.

Regards
china-silvercoin

"The one who speaks the truth needs a fast horse." (Chinese Proverb)

Thanks!

I don't know the silver panda market well. I think 83-85 are still the key ones  and one oz program should be good since I have different friends selling the sets. The whole sets are relatively cheap, so maybe easy to sell. The large silvers didn't do good and hope they can catch up soon.

Offline wittu

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2020, 04:04:35 AM »
 N34

thank you very much.  :thumbup:

Are you able/allowed to tell the possible lower grades? (trade secret?)

For the key coins: do they even use 65? 66? 67?  in times, when it it easy to sell?  N67

Once in a while i had the chance to get   key coins (for example 94 and 96 1/2oz), that would MAYBE be lower than 68, maybe only 65 to 67- i guess not higher, but also not lower --> but still pretty good looking --> no junk..

I wonder, if i should buy them, when the price is really good and much less than a 68 or 69 price (for example half of the price).

For my own collection, i wouldn`t need them, but they could be a good invest?

Sorry for asking so much and detailed, but i was thinking so much about it  :blink: :w00t:

Greetings,
wittu  N48

Offline storm

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2020, 04:18:34 AM »
Storm is one of the smartest collector, investor and broker that I have known.   I am lucky to have known him for the last 10 years.

The key take away everyone should keep in mind is the market is always evolving and the potential collector and investor base in China is larger than any country on the plant for the next century.  Don't worry about what is hot or cold today, think about what the market make look like in 20-40 years and collect/invest ahead of it.

I wise saying is never sell something you can't replace unless someone offers a stupid price for it.  In 2011 I sold a few 1992 proof sets and 1998 LD sets at $25K and $42K, respectively, used the money to buy summer lake home.  Yesterday I signed papers to sell that home at a stupid price and have already spent 70% of the proceeds to buy panda coins and platinum eagles, hope to invest remaining 30% in the coming months.  My money is betting that gold pandas and platinum eagles will rise faster in during the next 5 years than real estate.  Only time will tell, as nobody can truly predict the future.

Hi Arif,

Thanks! I'm not that smart but you are! You have been contributing so much to this forum! Glad to know you for more than 10 years. Besides the three key dealers living in the bay area, the coin people here who I communicated the most was you and Nick Brown who I missed a lot.

Offline storm

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2020, 04:24:58 AM »
Wittu, the agent who bought the master sets from dealers to sell to the bank (and now has gone off on his own to form sets) did not buy graded coins. That is why Chinese dealers spent so much effort cracking coins out of holders before submitting them for sets. This is a significant factor in the diminished price spread between MS-69 coins and lower grades. What grade can pass? I know specifically of one BENT coin that was bought to be included in a master set.

Storm, you are indeed lucky to, "have chance to connect with all major US dealers who deal with chinese coins. I’m lucky that I have good connection with almost all key dealers in China and I’m lucky that I know most of the high end MCC collectors in China. Once you have all these, you learn from each other and you know some inside information."

So I have a simple question to add to your list: there is one collector in China who is widely known as the "Panda King." He has more Panda patterns in his collection than anyone else I have met and has photos of others that he couldn't buy, as well. I wouldn't want to name him, but what city does he live in? 

Thanks for the interesting post and happy collecting.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
NGC Consultant
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide
Home of the 2020 Valentine Panda
www.pandacollector.com

HI Peter,

The answer is Shenzhen! He doesn't have the picture of the 1988 pt panda LD and many friends want his 97 5 oz bi-metal panda.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2020, 07:02:28 AM »
HI Peter,

The answer is Shenzhen! He doesn't have the picture of the 1988 pt panda LD and many friends want his 97 5 oz bi-metal panda.

Hi Storm, bravo and welcome back to the Chinese Coin Forum. Your knowledge and experience will be greatly appreciated here.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
NGC Consultant
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide
Home of the 2020 Valentine Panda
www.pandacollector.com


Offline PandaCollector

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2020, 07:11:45 AM »
N34

thank you very much.  :thumbup:

Are you able/allowed to tell the possible lower grades? (trade secret?)

For the key coins: do they even use 65? 66? 67?  in times, when it it easy to sell?  N67

Once in a while i had the chance to get   key coins (for example 94 and 96 1/2oz), that would MAYBE be lower than 68, maybe only 65 to 67- i guess not higher, but also not lower --> but still pretty good looking --> no junk..

I wonder, if i should buy them, when the price is really good and much less than a 68 or 69 price (for example half of the price).

For my own collection, i wouldn`t need them, but they could be a good invest?

Sorry for asking so much and detailed, but i was thinking so much about it  :blink: :w00t:

Greetings,
wittu  N48

Wittu,

I think your challenge would be to get full value for the lower grade coins. It's a very thin market. There may be, probably, only one true buyer for the low-grade key date coins. It is unlikely that you could sell directly to him and any go-betweens will want minimize their cost and risk, so you need a clear strategy to profit from this. There is potential, good luck.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
NGC Consultant
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide
Home of the 2020 Valentine Panda
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2020, 08:36:38 AM »
Hi Baron88,

I can't tell you all the details because some information should be trade secret. But I will tell you what I can. The master set program started in 2011 to sell 30 gold panda sets from 1982-2011. From 2011 to present year, almost 10 years, with ups and downs, the total master sets sold, based on my information, I believe the number is between 400-450 sets with 2012 the peak year.

Hope this answers your question.




400 - 450 master sets sold!?     Wow.    All sizes of gold pandas too?     (Some sets are just 1 oz.)     No wonder supply is so thin....

Offline Birdman

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2020, 11:53:06 AM »
From 2011 to present year, almost 10 years, with ups and downs, the total master sets sold, based on my information, I believe the number is between 400-450 sets with 2012 the peak year.

How interesting to hear such information from a knowledgeable individual.  To think that 400+ of every key and semi-key coin is now likely off the market for a long time, locked up in these sets, is fascinating.  And it continues coin-by-coin, set-by-set, month-by-month.

+1 for the insights, storm.

Offline PandaAccumulator

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2020, 12:10:11 PM »
What a nice discussion. I am lucky to have known storm for over 3 years, through this Forum. For that reason, I thank Snowball for creating and maintaining this platform, to connect us together. I wish I have known storm sooner, I have learnt a lot from him. As Arif stated, he is the collector, investor and researcher, perhaps with the broadest knowledge on MCC. So storm, please keep contributing!

400-450 master set sold over a period of 10 years isn't a big number if you divide by ten, yet, it can create a huge demand on certain key date coins and jump up the prices. 
PA.

Offline baron88

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2020, 12:30:33 PM »
Hi Baron88,

I can't tell you all the details because some information should be trade secret. But I will tell you what I can. The master set program started in 2011 to sell 30 gold panda sets from 1982-2011. From 2011 to present year, almost 10 years, with ups and downs, the total master sets sold, based on my information, I believe the number is between 400-450 sets with 2012 the peak year.

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks for the valuable information!  I feel sorry for the buyer of the master set with a BENT coin included as Peter mentioned. I wonder if such a defect is disclosed.

Offline rosab2000

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2020, 12:59:00 PM »
I think the discussion is very good!  Can I throw in the round whether other Chinese coins can follow the run?  I don't collect very many pandas but other series of modern china coins.  @ Storm they have a lot of insight into collector circles.  Do you (and also other users?) Think that the other series will wake up from their sleep?  I like to collect discoveries and inventions and I hope that this series will perhaps one day be sold in a kind of master gold set.  Or do you think it is better to specialize in pandas?  The China market is a bit divided at the moment.  The coin001 is getting more and more popular and the kms rates are increasing continuously.  The circulation coins proof are also increasing.  As the old dollar coin market goes up.  Due to the split up of the market, it is not easy what to collect.  What is your opinion on this ?  Greetings from Germany N40

Offline mowi

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2020, 01:37:01 PM »
Hi Storm, thanks for starting this tread with such a well written post, sharing your knowledge and initiating great discussions.

Offline bonke

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2020, 02:36:14 PM »
Storm

Did you help create the early Master Sets (and the packaging)?  Long ago, I would visit a China Gold Coin Inc. store in southwestern Beijing and see a Master Set in the display case, along with a wide range of other modern chinese coins.  The coins were placed in hard plastic capsules.  The 4-5 coins for each year were inserted in beautiful maple holders.  All of these holders were layered in drawers in a very large maple box.  It reminded me of the holders and display boxes used for the 2007 25th Anniversary Panda gold proof set (25-1/25th oz gold panda coins).   It appeared the presentation in the display holders and box was as important or more important than the coins themselves.

I did not realize the Master Sets originated in 2011.  I thought I was seeing them in this store earlier in the century.  Still, I am aging and my memory of what I did or did not see during a particular trip is fading.

Are these Master Sets sold in the same display holders and boxes?  If so, the boxes must be very large (and heavy) to accommodate 39 years of coins in all denominations.

Thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge with us.  I do really appreciate it.

Mark Bonke

Offline xc

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Re: supply and demand of gold panda coins
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2020, 02:56:11 PM »
Thank you Storm for starting the interesting thread with tons of info. Following up Bonke's post, does anyone have pictures of the "master set" in their presentable selling packagings? "Master set" is mentioned so many times in the forum and I am just curious to see one  :001_smile: Thanks.